Question regarding inertial mode

Olorin · Post by **Olorin** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:01 am

Hey all, was hoping someone could help me. Okay, just started playing this game and one thing was bothering me...when I switch to inertial mode the only way I can accelerate is with the afterburner. My throttle has no effect anywhere from 0-99%. I can even see the throttle set speed changing, but no effect on my velocity. When I'm in IDS mode everything works fine. Did I mess something up, is this a bug, or is it by design?

Thanks for the help!

Post by **Vice** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:14 am

You disable all thruster and engine controls when you turn off the computer link to them (IDS). It lets you drift freely. You can still use your maneuvering thrusters manually when the IDS is off, including forward/reverse engine thruster control (default , and . keys).

Olorin · Post by **Olorin** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:07 am

Thanks for the info! So it's by design then. Cool, I just wanted to make sure I didn't break something/wasn't a bug. So are the forward/reverse thrusters you mentioned the same as the throttle control (below afterburner) in IDS mode? Or are they more like the lateral thruster, which I assume are weaker(for lack of a better word)?

Sorry for the rather noobish questions. I haven't played any of the previous iterations so I'm brand new.

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:07 am

Vice I've actually noticed and I'm not sure if this is intended... but the forward and reverse thrusters are actually considerably weaker than the maneuvering thrusters. Basically if I want to speed up forward quickly without using the afterburner its actually more practical to turn my ship sideways and strafe in that direction than to try to thrust forward. Is that intended?

Edit: It's actually almost as if the strafing thrusters are as powerful as afterburners but without the afterburner. IE the acceleration speed for side to side in inertial mode appears to be on par with afterburning forward and back.

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by TGS]

RobDog · Post by **RobDog** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:11 am

Originally posted by TGS
Vice I've actually noticed and I'm not sure if this is intended... but the forward and reverse thrusters are actually considerably weaker than the maneuvering thrusters. Basically if I want to speed up forward quickly without using the afterburner its actually more practical to turn my ship sideways and strafe in that direction than to try to thrust forward. Is that intended?

Edit: It's actually almost as if the strafing thrusters are as powerful as afterburners but without the afterburner. IE the acceleration speed for side to side in inertial mode appears to be on par with afterburning forward and back.

Are you using a joystick? I have found that if I use just the joystick hat for strafing, then the thrusters work as they should, but if I use the axis controls on my joystick for a horizontal/vertical thrust WHILE using the hat at the same time, My thrusters are extremely powerful on par with an afterburner like you mentioned. It's as if the two controls are doing the same thing and as a result multiplying the effect (the acceleration).

This seems to be definitely not intended and rather quite the exploit.

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by RobDog]

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Nah I use keyboard. Hmmm so is it accurate that if I want to accelerate forward fast there is no way of doing it outside of the afterburner... or turning sideways and using my side thrusters? I ask primarily with respect to the new Stealth Generator which seems to turn off on afterburner use. Which subsequently is redundant if I can use the thrusters to accelerate with near afterburner power.

Post by **Vice** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:25 pm

Let me check into the thruster trim keys, they can likely have their performance boosted to match the other thruster controls.

Gnou · Post by **Gnou** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:40 pm

Manoeuvring thrusters are part of the frame (cf. the off. guide)

But are their power different for each frame class ?
Agiliy seems only affect verical thruster, isnt it ?

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:03 pm

Yeah but it doesn't particularly make sense that the forward/reverse thrusters aka , and . would be pushing considerably less power than the side thrusters. I know side thrusters are used for strafing and rapid direction control but at the end of the day so would forward and reverse. The only reason I could see for it being so "underpowered" is that forward/back you can easily afterburn to gain the extra thrust.

However considering my issue stems from not being able to after burn whilst stealth it seems very clunky that should I want to accelerate at a respectable rate I have to do so sideways. Since my max speed on my ship is I think 578 lol.

Originally posted by Gnou
Manoeuvring thrusters are part of the frame (cf. the off. guide)

But are their power different for each frame class ?
Agiliy seems only affect verical thruster, isnt it ?

And thanks for looking into it Vice.

Post by **Vice** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:05 pm

Actually, there are a number of factors that come into play including wing/thruster system installed, cargo you're carrying, and weight of the ship.

RobDog · Post by **RobDog** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:53 pm

Originally posted by Eclipse
Actually this is intended and is called "overloading" the thrusters, but it's an intentional game mechanic.

Oh, ok then. My mistake. So I guess with this "overloading" feature its much more efficient to travel vertically or horizontally than it is to use the afterburner for forward thrust? (In terms of fuel consumption)

Olorin · Post by **Olorin** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:57 pm

So question for those using a joystick and throttle. When in inertial mode, how do you have forward/reverse thrusting set up? I would like to bind that to my joystick throttle like normal, but will that potentially cause issues with acceleration when in IDS mode?

Thanks for the help!

EDIT: NVM, I'll just set it to a convenient button. I just realized the throttle wouldn't make much sense, since I'm assuming thrusters are either on or off, there's no variability.

I was getting confused because IDS give you the "illusion" of engine variability whereas I assume it uses the same thrusters when in inertial, it just gives an easier method of setting a speed and maintaining it. This makes it seem like thrusters are variable when in actuality I assume they're not(?) and it just controls the direction and timing of thruster application to keep a set speed. Do I understand this correctly?

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by Olorin]

Post by **Vice** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:18 pm

After some testing, I was able to pin down the cause of the lean behavior of the throttle trim controls, so those will be corrected for the next update.

RobDog · Post by **RobDog** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:38 pm

Originally posted by Olorin
So question for those using a joystick and throttle. When in inertial mode, how do you have forward/reverse thrusting set up? I would like to bind that to my joystick throttle like normal, but will that potentially cause issues with acceleration when in IDS mode?

Thanks for the help!

EDIT: NVM, I'll just set it to a convenient button. I just realized the throttle wouldn't make much sense, since I'm assuming thrusters are either on or off, there's no variability.

I was getting confused because IDS give you the "illusion" of engine variability whereas I assume it uses the same thrusters when in inertial, it just gives an easier method of setting a speed and maintaining it. This makes it seem like thrusters are variable when in actuality I assume they're not(?) and it just controls the direction and timing of thruster application to keep a set speed. Do I understand this correctly?

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by Olorin]

Yes, that is correct, and I also have the forward and back inertial thrust thrusters set to buttons on my joystick.

Thanks for the speedy solution Vice!

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:09 pm

Awesome so I guess that means once the update is done that generally speaking if you accelerate via the forward/reverse thrusters it should operate at a similar level to your other thrusters?

And that actually kinda makes me wonder if you're in inertial mode why is it you can thrust well beyond your ships limit? I'm not even sure what the basis of that limit is. Obviously if you're using a heavy frame and what not that it affects your max speed but in reality it doesn't seem to. So I guess to reframe the question why in IDS mode are you limited to such a low speed and the only way to break beyond that is using inertial.

Originally posted by Vice
After some testing, I was able to pin down the cause of the lean behavior of the throttle trim controls, so those will be corrected for the next update.

Olorin · Post by **Olorin** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:26 pm

Originally posted by RobDog
Originally posted by Olorin
So question for those using a joystick and throttle. When in inertial mode, how do you have forward/reverse thrusting set up? I would like to bind that to my joystick throttle like normal, but will that potentially cause issues with acceleration when in IDS mode?

Thanks for the help!

EDIT: NVM, I'll just set it to a convenient button. I just realized the throttle wouldn't make much sense, since I'm assuming thrusters are either on or off, there's no variability.

I was getting confused because IDS give you the "illusion" of engine variability whereas I assume it uses the same thrusters when in inertial, it just gives an easier method of setting a speed and maintaining it. This makes it seem like thrusters are variable when in actuality I assume they're not(?) and it just controls the direction and timing of thruster application to keep a set speed. Do I understand this correctly?

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by Olorin]
Yes, that is correct, and I also have the forward and back inertial thrust thrusters set to buttons on my joystick.

Thanks for the speedy solution Vice!

Awesome, thanks for the verification!

Post by **Vice** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:27 pm

Awesome so I guess that means once the update is done that generally speaking if you accelerate via the forward/reverse thrusters it should operate at a similar level to your other thrusters?

Yes.

So I guess to reframe the question why in IDS mode are you limited to such a low speed and the only way to break beyond that is using inertial.

Mostly for manageable speed during regular flight and combat (easier navigation in populated areas, easier to dock with a station, rapid maneuvers, etc). Staying with the more manageable range lets you make quicker turns, reverse course, and dogfight more effectively. But there are times when freedom of movement is important, so those caps are lifted when the IDS is off.

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:35 pm

Originally posted by Vice

After some testing, I was able to pin down the cause of the lean behavior of the throttle trim controls, so those will be corrected for the next update.

You might want to check the up and down thrusters too. I found them to be about as effective, when inertial is engaged, as side thrusters. (Cutting my own throat here ... I use lateral thrusters as a primary escape mechanism when main engines are inop.)

Whytephyre · Post by **Whytephyre** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:58 am

Wow, cargo affects your weight now! Too cool

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:01 am

Hi Olorin, welcome aboard. Hope to see you out there.....

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:29 am

Cool, I was thinking of posting about how forward/reverse inertial thrusters are weaker than the lateral and vertical ones. Good to know it isn't an intended feature. I'll wait for the update and retest.

In that post I was also going to make the point that forward/reverse thrust is weaker than the thrust you get using IDS. If you start at 0m/s in inertial mode and use forward inertial thrusters to get up to your max IDS speed it takes significantly longer than starting out at 0m/s and getting up to your max IDS speed using IDS. This is without using afterburners in either case and also applies to your reverse inertial thrusters. The thrust you get using IDS seems to be in line with what you get from lateral and vertical inertial thrusters, sounds like the planned update is just the ticket.

Very cool to hear that cargo affects acceleration. I assume it matters how much cargo you have as well ie 5 cargo bays with 5 units of diamond each adds as much mass as 1 cargo bay with 25 units of diamond + 4 empty cargo bays? Do different types of cargo have different mass or does 1 unit of any type of cargo have the same effect as any other? What about things you can only fit 1 of per cargo bay? Do other things like equipment/missles/missle hardpoints/unused assembly/fuel remaining/crew/passengers/crew slots etc also have an effect? They do not change your IDS speed but it makes sense that a ship with a passenger onboard has more mass than the same ship with just the ability to have a passenger onboard etc.

Gnou · Post by **Gnou** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:32 am

Message original : Aures
Do other things like equipment/missles/missle hardpoints/unused assembly/fuel remaining/crew/passengers/crew slots etc also have an effect? They do not change your IDS speed but it makes sense that a ship with a passenger onboard has more mass than the same ship with just the ability to have a passenger onboard etc.

I dont think about passengers mass being a revealant factor here.... ^^

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:20 am

Originally posted by Gnou
I dont think about passengers mass being a revealant factor here.... ^^

Yeah that was kind of my point, there are a lot of things that would affect the mass to some extent if you think about it. But, it is a bit extreme to actually code them in the game. Especially with regard to passengers and crew. You would either have to assign them a standard mass or introduce some system for giving passengers and crew a weight statistic. Plus their mass is presumably tiny compared to units of cargo. I do not know how much mass a unit of cargo represents, presumably 1 unit of water is something like 1 ton or one cubic metre of water.

I assume the system used to have cargo etc affect mass is pretty simple and I was hoping for some elucidation from Vice regarding how it actually functions. I had assumed it had no effect so I regard whatever system is in place as a nice bonus.

Also, if fuel remaining affects the mass of the ship then that makes ships in Evochron a whole lot closer to real world rockets. I would be delighted to hear that had been implemented but again I did not expect anything like that to be in the game.

Blackthorne · Post by **Blackthorne** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:42 pm

Well, about the mass of passengers...there is this nifty button that jettisons your cargo to quickly reduce mass in case of an emergency. I'm not sure what people would think about a button that jettisons passengers and crew for the same reason.

...Alt-J maybe?

-Blackthorne

[Edited on 23-9-2010 by Blackthorne]

InterFaced · Post by **InterFaced** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:53 pm

Originally posted by Vice
After some testing, I was able to pin down the cause of the lean behavior of the throttle trim controls, so those will be corrected for the next update.

Excellent news. I was wondering why I needed afterburners to get any significant forward momentum. At least we still have ABs until the update hits.

Been awhile since I posted here regularly but I've been loving Mercenary since its release. Nobody else makes games like this, keep up the great work.

[Edited on 9-23-2010 by InterFaced]