Engine Classes

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:18 pm

Something of a belated newbie question...

Is there any advantage to higher engine classes, other than higher "top speeds" (nullified by inertial flying) and fuel consumption? To me, it seems like bigger engines should produce more thrust and therefore higher rates of acceleration/deceleration, but it doesn't seem to be the case even in the expansion as all engine classes appear to change your velocity at the same rate. Am I missing something?

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:36 pm

Nope, the only advantage is higher speed and maybe a little bit of agility increase for the heavier class ship. Your Heavier ship will become a slow flying heavy brick with the lowest class engine and slow to turn and target hostiles!......So it is to your advantage to upgrade to the highest class Engine regardless of no advantage in acceleration!.......

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:37 pm

Don't the higher wing/foil classes improve agility, regardless of engine type?

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:41 pm

From post: 154415, Topic: tid=10318, author=Destro wrote:Don't the higher wing/foil classes improve agility, regardless of engine type?

Yes, they do, but I think the Engine class improves it a tiny bit!

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:43 pm

Gotcha. I'll pay a little more attention and try to experiment some more. Thanks!

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:56 pm

Your engine is also your power supply, or battery if you will.

So the higher the engine class the more energy you have to fire cannons and recharge your shields.

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:57 pm

Ah-HA!

I knew there had to be a big thing I was missing, and a part of me thinks I knew that.

Thanks!

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:17 am

From post: 154424, Topic: tid=10318, author=Nubarus wrote:Your engine is also your power supply, or battery if you will.

So the higher the engine class the more energy you have to fire cannons and recharge your shields.

If this is true, I've learned something new. I always thought the best thing about a bigger engine was its coasting speed.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:54 pm

From post: 154469, Topic: tid=10318, author=Marvin wrote:
From post: 154424, Topic: tid=10318, author=Nubarus wrote:Your engine is also your power supply, or battery if you will.

So the higher the engine class the more energy you have to fire cannons and recharge your shields.
If this is true, I've learned something new. I always thought the best thing about a bigger engine was its coasting speed.

This is easy testable. Compare a Ferret to a Levithian! both having the heaviest high class weapons and see which can fire the longest!.....

:P

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:13 pm

Haven't youguys learned anything from the other thread where this question was asked?
Higher engines do give higher acceleration. The experiments that indicated all engines accelerate the same were flawed.
Please don't give new people false information!

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:21 pm

What Nub stated had nothing to do with acceleration. It had to do with energy output.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:00 pm

From post: 154595, Topic: tid=10318, author=-splosives- wrote:Haven't youguys learned anything from the other thread where this question was asked?
Higher engines do give higher acceleration. The experiments that indicated all engines accelerate the same were flawed.
Please don't give new people false information!

Higher class Engines only give noticable higher acceleration above 2500 speed. So fighting AIs and doing contracts you do not need to go over 2500 speed. It only might give you an advantage in Multi-PLay for PvP Battles. And going at those speed fighting AIs will take for ever to finish a Combat Contract\\Mission!. So for all practical SP purposes the acceleration of Higher class Engines is not that crucial at speeds of 600-1000 for combat mission completion in a short time!

We where just answering the question of what other factors Higher class Engines are good for besides the nominal acceleration benefits!....

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:01 pm

As soon as I get a free moment I'll try a C1 and C10 engine and check firing times - I must admit that, like Marvin, this is a new one on me as well!

As splosives says - he was the one who spotted that my original data wasn't up to the job - ( :-( ) so I redid the tests in much more details. He is correct though the difference in acceleration isn't so big that it's a "no brainer".

Page 43 of the Mercenary Technical Guide has the data and analysis of the effect of engine size on acceleration as well as top speed. You can make your own mind up.

Download Technical Guide from SeeJay's website

The conclusion I came to (ie my interpretation of the data) is . . .

-- data and graphs of engine vs acceleration here in the Guide --

Conclusion - which engine should I buy?

The results of these experiments strongly suggest that the "cost" (credits and assembly points) of a higher engine class are not worth it if you are only wanting better acceleration. Probably an afterburner booster or a military frame will be a better bet, but . . .

Engine class has a big impact on final top speeds using IDS.

-- data and graphs of engine vs top speed here in the Guide --

This shows that a C10 engine can add nearly 1500 to your frames base speed when you use the IDS multiplier at x5! So - choose an engine that gives you the top speeds you want, not for acceleration!

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:42 pm

From post: 154619, Topic: tid=10318, author=Maarschalk wrote:
So fighting AIs and doing contracts you do not need to go over 2500 speed. It only might give you an advantage in Multi-PLay for PvP Battles. And going at those speed fighting AIs will take for ever to finish a Combat Contract\\Mission!. So for all practical SP purposes the acceleration of Higher class Engines is not that crucial at speeds of 600-1000 for combat mission completion in a short time!

We where just answering the question of what other factors Higher class Engines are good for besides the nominal acceleration benefits!....

It's best to give all the info, and let the player decide for himself what he wants.

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:45 pm

Gee guys, take it outside please!

hank · Post by **hank** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:10 pm

From post: 154424, Topic: tid=10318, author=Nubarus wrote:Your engine is also your power supply, or battery if you will.

So the higher the engine class the more energy you have to fire cannons and recharge your shields.

I did not see any other comments on this one. If this is true (and no I have not tried it yet), then for combat a big engine has benefits regarding firepower. (plus the other stuff being discussed here) Maybe why all mil frames have class 10 engines.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:16 pm

From post: 154702, Topic: tid=10318, author=Busch wrote:Gee guys, take it outside please!

It is freezing outside, and besides no one can hear you talk in the Vacuum of Space!......

:P:P:P:P:P

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:34 pm

From post: 154710, Topic: tid=10318, author=Maarschalk wrote:
From post: 154702, Topic: tid=10318, author=Busch wrote:Gee guys, take it outside please!
It is freezing outside, and besides no one can hear you talk in the Vacuum of Space!......:P:P:P:P:P

I read in "The Dark Wheel" that

"In space, everyone can hear you scream . . . as long, that is, as you're equipped with a RemLok Survival Mask."

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:58 am

After finding and reading some of the game literature, I verified what has been said above, and according to the facts and figures provided, yes, there is an increase in acceleration with higher engine classes depending on ship chassis mass and initial velocity. I also remember from my first stint into this game (before the expansion) that installing a higher class engine DID make me notice a significant boost to my weapon energy reserve, allowing for longer periods of sustained fire.

Thanks for the info, guys!

PlasmaJedi · Post by **PlasmaJedi** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:00 pm

Are u sure? We should nail this down once and for all, do engines really influence your ships power supply?

I built my custom weapons to save on power, and my type 3 particle cannons (I forget the name, the type before fusion) can fire with my class 3 engine for about 18 seconds with power banced between shields and weapons.

What about shield generators? Obviously c10 is the way to go, but shield booster affect you "hit points" as in, how much power your shields can make use of, right? So does the generators effect recharge? Or damage resistance? And if the shields and weapons draw from the same power source, then do shields power your weapons? Or are shields powered by your engines?

Why doesn't Vice just say what it is? Is it a "developers secret", and that's why we have to figure it out? I'm not criticizing; he shouldn't tell us the hidden a system co ords either, just wondering the reason for why this is still a debatable topic.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:05 pm

From post: 155409, Topic: tid=10318, author=PlasmaJedi wrote:Why doesn't Vice just say what it is? Is it a "developers secret", and that's why we have to figure it out?

Check SeeJay's website or Dave's manual. Just about every chart and graph contain data somebody had to figure out.

PlasmaJedi · Post by **PlasmaJedi** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:20 pm

From post: 155410, Topic: tid=10318, author=Marvin wrote:
From post: 155409, Topic: tid=10318, author=PlasmaJedi wrote:Why doesn't Vice just say what it is? Is it a "developers secret", and that's why we have to figure it out?
Check SeeJay's website or Dave's manual. Just about every chart and graph contain data somebody had to figure out.

I have those, and it doesn't have anything conclusive. So, do we know why Vice won't say? Is it a developers secret? Must be, but if it were up to me, I'd explain it.

[Edited on 1-11-2013 by PlasmaJedi]

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:24 pm

It's code. And sometimes that's hard to translate into performance.

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:34 am

And, the "performance" has been as "nailed down"; as much as it can get without more imperical evidence, pro or con. Read the info, understand the info, apply the info. It's all pretty much "sanctioned" or it would not be in print and available. And, "it" all works for every one equally, or Vice fixes "it" so that it does. Try experimenting with all the beam and particle weapons classes, shield strengths, cargo bays, wing sets, hull profile combinations - both mil and civ designs. Figure that pretty much every choice effects performace, one way or another. Find what works best for you/your "style", or "character". The games' pretty open to just about limitless opportunity....from "soup to nuts" mostly...

You seem to be asking for/looking for a certain "concrete-ness" in the dynamic, constantly fluid environment of this "head" space we fly. Vice continues to do his best with at least an appearance of feasability, but I think the virtual reality you're looking for is a bit out of any one's depth right now. The vapor-ware is....but the hardware's not currently available....

Destro · Post by **Destro** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:33 am

I *would* be interested to see hard figures, if someone were indeed to test the sustained firing time on two ships identical in every way other than differing engine classes if nothing else than just to sate my curiosity as to exactly how much difference the "battery size" makes. I am 90% sure, however, that it DOES make a difference, as I distinctly remember a pretty huge eyebrow-raise when I noticed, after I bought my first bigger engine, how much longer I could hold the trigger down before my ship started wheezing.