I feel I'm missing something here. (Feedback thread!)

[Jack Dandy]

Hey there

I recently finished the Mercenary questline (Getting to that planet), and I gotta say I'm feeling kind of underwhelmed.
Flying around, doing lots of contracts, and blasting bad guys was cool, and is still great fun due to the inertial physics-based combat but I'm feeling the game could achieve a whole lot more.

I mean, money stops being a problem relatively early-on (When you get that phantom cannon stash), so there's little incentive for doing tougher missions, or finding good trading routes.
The planets, while neat to look at, don't offer anything of value besides mining, and trade cities that are 95% identical to the countless space stations around.

I mean, is that it? Does the game offer anything else besides multiplayer? I know that there are some hidden-away stations as well, but they're just like the other ones, aren't they?

I feel the game could REALLY benefit from some more padding/fluff. A simple generic story, some conversations with characters, reasons to explore planets/star systems, maybe some benefits from siding with any of the factions, tougher and tougher race missions- and mainly: reasons to DO stuff, other then just saying "It's there and you can do it".

Anyway, these are my 2 cents.
I still think I got a good trade for my $, but I think this game could be FAR better if it had some more reasons to do stuff in it, even if they're just "padding".

[Spartan268]

One thing to remember is that this game is still developing, constantly moving forward. Ever since Legends this Vice has done nothing but improve countless things in this series and is still adding and improving. It is important to remember that things like these require countless hours of development. I am sure Vice has plans to add content to this game. The best way to help, that i see, is going into multiplayer and finding things/helping him in possible developments. Vice is in game quite often testing his work and finding new things or "querks" to add this "fluff/padding" that your talking about. He is a skilled designer. Just give it time.

[Flash]

I guess you may have hit on what some would call drawbacks of an open ended game. Part of the big appeal of this game is because it is one of the few if not only space sims which allows you the freedom to do what you want. Because of this uniqueness it has drawn a relatively small crowd of people who have been looking for just that sort of thing, people who want to explore, race and destroy stuff without the restrictions of a storyline or set goals. When you say, “Does the game offer anything else besides multi-player?� yes it does but the biggest part of the game is the multiplayer aspect. It is the multi-players who make the storyline. By far the vast majority of the players in MP are great people to go on missions with. But even the not so nice people add a fun spice to the game, for example. Occasionally you will get a player or group of pirate players concentrating in Sapphire preying on newbies entering the game. But what usually happens is the veteran pilots or the guild comes in to defend the poor sot and kick the pirates’ asses. So yea, a lot of appeal to this game is MP because of the social interaction aspect of the game. We have several clans, one guild on a mission, and a bunch of freelancers like me. Sometimes the clans get all pissed off at each other and all hell breaks loose and sometimes everyone is buddy, buddy. But if you have several pilots online it usually is not boring. I use to be in a clan under a different name but chose to go freelance so I could run missions where ever I want and not interfere with any clan’s territory. But being in a clan blowing up stations, running missions in hostile clan territories, and engaging in PvP is a blast. Hope to see you in MP soon.

[Jack Dandy]

Hmmm.. maybe.

But still, I think that adding just a little more substance to the SP portion could really round it out as a package that's absolutely great for both SP and MP.
Maybe unique quests you can get on specific planets/stations, interesting people/stories to read, stuff like that.

What frustrates me the most is how the gameplay itself is great, and it's got many variations (mining, racing, fighting), but there is hardly any incentive to participate in the SP portion of the game. Maybe it's just me...


[Edited on 5-12-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[Avenger]

I am helping starsystems get cleaned up by attacking Rebel and Guild ships, run Energy, Miners and Navy contracts until the reputation is changed.

Having lot's of fun doing it, so far I changed Olympus Prime, Pearl and Onyx to Good reputation, no more hostiles around to bother me.

[Flash]

Hmmm.. maybe.

But still, I think that adding just a little more substance to the SP portion could really round it out as a package that absolutely great for both SP and MP.
Maybe unique quests you can get on specific planets/stations, interesting people/stories to read, stuff like that.

What frustrates me the most is how the gameplay itself is great, and it's got many variations (mining, racing, fighting), but there is hardly any incentive to participate in the SP portion of the game. Maybe it's just me...

[Edited on 5-11-2011 by Jack Dandy]

I agree Jack, SP can get boring quick and given the great game it is, SP could use some more of something.

[SeeJay]

Hi Jack.

I understand and agree to some point that some more storys could be added.
It is a open space/sandbox game so I also understand why it's setup is as it is.

However, Vice have included a lot of modding/contract creating possibilities for all of us
to play with. Thats why me and a few fellow pilots are creating another big quest for all
to try out when it's done. That might be something for you? The IMG is setup to teach you, this
one is a challange and forces you to think outside the box!

I have also started a PvP competition that is great fun and more will come.

Hope to see you out there.

[Jack Dandy]

Looking forward to those things then, SeeJay

And just a little tidbit I wanted to add- to achieve an open "Do what you want" universe in a game is quite the feat, but it just isn't worth that much if there aren't things that MAKE people want to go out and participate in the various activities.

For example, imagine this; having a life of freedom and no hardship could be great, but it loses meaning if it doesn't have at least a general purpose.

At least, that's what I think.

[Edited on 5-11-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[Vice]

Interesting discussion and points. I've posted some thoughts below (including a few ideas on objectives that other players have come up with).

First, quite a number of gamers do prefer character interaction and story telling/plot points in their games. Evochron really hasn't been about that, being more of a technical simulation. But expanding the concept of set objectives may be a direction the game goes in the future. However, if such elements are added, they will likely remain pretty 'loose' and optional, rather than statically telling the player where to go and what to do with few or no options.

It's interesting to see how various people respond to near-complete freedom in a game. Some jump right in and find ways to make the game fun for them. They come up with (and set up) their own scenarios and challenges, then dive into the gameplay and have a blast. This happens in LAN gameplay a lot by players who send me their comments and feedback, but never use the forum or participate in online multiplayer. Others feel lost, wandering around wondering where to go and what to do next. They're used to a static chain of required events they must complete in order to advance from, say, 'level 1' to 'level 2' and the idea that they are entirely in control of coming up with a gameplan can be either boring, frustrating, or intimidating. The variation is pretty dynamic as could be expected considering the vast array of player interests and personalities.

but it just isn't worth that much if there aren't things that MAKE people want to go out and participate in the various activities.

Therein lies both the explanation and the challenge for a freeform game design. It's a subjective target and what appeals to one is what turns away the other. Evochron attempts to mix a few fixed/static objective concepts into its freefrom design, but it's not been designed to 'make people' do A or B. What one person may 'want' to do can be very different from someone else and obviously, players who expect to be told a story or given specific directives on what to do in a game will probably not find the freeform nature of Evochron very fun long term. Or it may at least be something they come back to later as their mood and interests may change (or even after they might discover something new in the game).

For example, imagine this; having a life of freedom and no hardship could be great, but it loses meaning if it doesn't have at least a general purpose.

Plenty would argue both a 'general purpose' and 'specific purposes' are available in the game, but I suspect the point there is some want the purpose pre-defined for them and likely also presented in a story format. I will be interested in seeing how some of the custom quests are received in that regard. And believe it or not, there is also a sizeable number of players who want (and have even demanded from me, lol) that they be given the option to have 'no hardship'. They literally want to fly around in peaceful space as much as possible just to calmly mine asteroids, explore caves, traverse planets, deliver items, transport people, find lost items, design ships, race, and/or recover/sell fuel. It's part of the reason why there are significant areas of peaceful space in the game along with hardship bypasses like high speed travel and stealth/cloaking devices.

The key to a game like Evochron is to first establish what 'general purpose' it is you want, then find out if it's available to you by default, or if not, if it's something you can develop on your own using the rules and options available to you in the game. Could be basics like 'leveling up' or building rank, or something less specific like policing a system or taking ownership of it. Just a few ideas: Some enjoy capture the flag setups in asteroid caves (what the energy pods and receivers are there for as well as dropped cargo containers). Some enjoy custom race scenarios, such as who can reach a city first from a starting line without exploding in the atmosphere or first to dock at a cave station. Since the game has a significant combat element to it, many enjoy setting up a various of battle scenarios including duels, PvE coop, gunner battles (2vs2 or higher where only the turret gunners are allowed to shoot), clan-vs-clan combat for territory control, billion-credit wagers on battle outcomes, high wind gas giant planet battles, no-jump no-missile energy nebula battles, foxhunts (if the player reaches a point, they win), .

Overall, there is quite an extensive gameplay 'toolset' available to those who are willing and interested in using it (pretty far beyond what you'd find in a round-after-round of same-map battles in a first person shooter).

Anyway, interesting discussion and I appreciate the comments/points raised. Food for thought for future updates/development.

[Jack Dandy]

I understand what you're saying.

Just to make it clear- in no way do I think the game should be even a bit more linear. That would ruin it's uniqueness. I got this game to have fun in space on my own terms

What I would love to see however, is more incentive for participating in the various available Single Player activities. For example:

Trading - No more obvious "infinite money" setups like that Phantom Cannon thing. I'd love if trading needed to have some more thought put into it by the player, and could make big profits with it. Hints about upcoming rising/lowering prices before they actually happen, and having the players figure it out by themselves could prove very rewarding.

Racing - Tougher opponents, Championships, Longer races could all contribute for that.

Exploration - Simply give reason to explore. One example I could take is from the Metroid Prime games; even though they were shooters, they were known for blending in elements of Adventure games, encouraging players to go off the "obvious" path, and find hidden stuff. The players could scan murals that would reveal big portions of the game's backstory, and find other neat things.
Maybe besides the trade cities, planets could also have villages with little unique mini-stories, quests, and so on. Again- everything's optional, and in no way forced upon the player.

Factions - I believe a little bit more info about the factions in the game would really help players immerse themselves in the game. Let me give you an example- in the game Fallout: New Vegas, the developers added some relatively unique factions in the game, the players could ally themselves with. While the game wasn't that amazing at all (Almost completely similar, gameplay wise, to Fallout 3), you can still find people actively chatting on the net about what factions they picked to side with, and for what reason.


As I said, the sheer potential this game has to really shine is what's bothering me the most. By giving players an (optional) purpose, I believe it could be reaching a far bigger crowd, while still offering all it has to the people who just want to fly around and do contracts, or have wild adventures on Multiplayer.
In any case, I'll be keeping a close eye on this and other future projects from you. Best of luck!

[Edited on 5-11-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[Vice]

Trading - No more obvious "infinite money" setups like that Phantom Cannon thing. I'd love if trading needed to have some more thought put into it by the player, and could make big profits with it. Hints about upcoming rising/lowering prices before they actually happen, and having the players figure it out by themselves should could prove very rewarding.

Capping/removing unlimited containers is on the drawing board. As for plotted trading, you know of the different economy types (indicated by local planet decriptions) which directly effects item availability, prices, and -big- profits? Also, you can introduce new changes and options into an economy by the structures you build a system?

Additional good points on the others.

[Edited on 5-11-2011 by Vice]

[Jack Dandy]

I read about it, but didn't really have to use it due to the Phantom Cannon thing. That's an example for the wasted potential I was talking about. If you think about fixing it though, that'll be great.

Oh, and on more thing- I think it could be cool if you had ranks for every one of the activities, not just Military and Mercenary.
Players could become master traders, superstar racers, etc, all with unique perks that come with the ranks. Lower prices? Stronger engines?

Still, it probably sounds like I'm just complaining a lot, but I just have so many ideas for the game... I hope you can forgive me. orz

[Edited on 5-12-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[gh0stwizard]

Interesting discussion, but I think Jack Dandy didn't played in the Elite (1984). It is also does not have a lot of information, it is also doesnot have races, storyline, ships available for the player was only two and many other constraints. Despite all this, in my opinion, Elite best spacesim ever created. Took 27 years and we have Evochron, which may be a better Elite.

Evochron can be extended and improved by the same things that came up for the Elite:
1. In addition to information about systems, you can add information about each planet, its political system, weather conditions, etc. Some players like it.

2. Information about the universe, the game can be presented as a story. It is well done in his time with the Elite. It was a small book, which is immersed in the game world. At this moment I know only one story about Evochron - History of the SW3DG Universe, is it official story? If yes, why I can't find it on starwraith site ?

3. To the existing missions, you can add random missions, which will seek the assistance of a player. They should not happen very often, should not be repeated exactly, but should make the player liable in the game world. For example, it is necessary to save the merchant from the attacks of robbers.

4. Encounters should be interesting. The latest version of the classic Elite have added patrols, clusters of ships miners, fighting various ships between each other. Them interesting to watch. This created the illusion of a living world.

5. Need a serious intervention in the current economy. In the Elite except trade and mining could make money destroying other ships. To earn its first 10,000 credits have to play at least 15-30 hours. For comparison, a good combat laser cost more than 15,000, and the new ship was worth several millions. Where to buy the ship had to fly in real life, 2-4 months.
In Evochron to earn the first million need 10-20 hours. Moreover, next 2 million have already extracted for 5-10 minutes. You just have to find one system with a high price (usually high tech systems) and one or two other low (low tech systems). The ship is the average price of 5 million. Everyone knows that.
In my opinion, this is wrong, the game is not challenging. Such easy money discourages engage in trade. I, as a player, can only learn game situations related to trading, but no more. After 40 hours of play, it remains for me to fight and explore the universe, just for the beautiful scenery.
If you reduce the difference between the prices of high-tech and low-tech system is 10 times smaller than now will be interesting to engage in trade. Or go through a large price increase for weapons, ships.

I know that all these ideas are not immediately realized. But I hope that in the near future in a series of games Evochron these ideas will somehow realized.

Hopefully this will help improve the game.

[Nigel_Strange]

Time for me to add my 30 shekels.

First of all, I don't do multiplayer. Remember all that freedom that this game is about? Well, my freedom ends where someone else's expectations begin. I can only find total freedom in a universe in which I am the only person whose expectations exist. I don't want to feel obligated to compete, be sociable, or do anything I don't want to do, which means no other players. If you see me online, trust me: it's not me.

There are a lot of things to discover if you go looking. However, you might say: "Why? What's the point?" I ask: what is the point of discovering anything? To assuage the burning curiosity of what is there. If you lack that curiosity, then I don't know if there is anything that anyone can say or do to make you want to explore.

As for making money: it is easy, once you know how to do it. The trick is gaining that knowledge. The IMG quests sort of give some of this away. Without the IMG quests, acquiring this knowledge would be the challenge.

The thing is, the easiest ways to make money need to be learned. Once you learn how, you are a wise guy, and you can get money very easily by exploiting (i.e. stealing) other people's goods, mining, etc. However, does being poor really add to the game experience? Moreover, a lot of noobs probably get on and ask where the free money is, to which I am sure many players easily consent to give away this information, without even charging a fee.

The game really started out as a space combat sim. It later evolved into an open-ended space game with a lot of other features, but its roots are still with space combat, and to change that mix might offend the existing, rather loyal, fanbase.

The economic system could be more realistic. There could be more art (adverts, banners, etc.). There could be different cockpit designs for each ship frame, there could be more information/backstory for each location, there could be sidequests.

There are a lot of things that you could add to the game, but this is one developer with limited time who needs to prioritize player requests. For every player that wants a story, there are ten who don't.

Also, do not forget the modding community.

[Maarschalk]

רק שלושים שקל?..........:P:P:P:P:P

[Nigel_Strange]

For everyone else, 2 cents, but for you, 30 shekels.

[Jack Dandy]

As I said- I don't want a forced linear story, because that would really feel out of place in the game.

What I really want to see is giving more incentive for the players to go out and participate in the game's activities.

Give players a reason to do all of the things that are listed on the game's Features page, while making them worthwhile and challenging. And I believe that attempting to reveal background story/lore could be one of the major draws to those activities.

ויא אללה, כמה אנשים יודעים פה עברית

[Edited on 5-12-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[SeeJay]

ויא אללה, כמה אנשים יודעים פה עברית

[Edited on 5-12-2011 by Jack Dandy]

I know what it says here at least, LOL!
To answer you, no I don't!

[Bossk]

Hi,

This thread is a really good read. For me, the open ended, free form aspect is one reason I love it so much. As a FPS gamer as well, I really enjoy the ability to just sit in space and watch the world go by. Then jump out and pounce on the poor unsuspecting sap that got to close!

With regards to back story and plots, there is a very rich pool of player written fiction on the forum that give players a sense of involvement and, while not "official", they have been accepted by the readers and are part of the games universe. This is a good one, if I say so myself! (Shameless plug!)

I do agree with the money side of things though. Once you get rich, it is very hard to spend it all, no matter how hard you try. Making the task of getting, and keeping money, harder I think would improve the game greatly.

Bossk

[MMaggio]

Ahh, how about a financial penalty everytime you get killed?

[Jack Dandy]

That could be nice too, but I would still really appreciate some more polishing to the trading, racing, and other aspects of the game I mentioned.

I'm no programmer, but with the high level of design Vice demonstrated by making this game, I don't think that sort of polishing could be hard to implement.

[xingbing1]

My 2 credits...
The open-ended nature of the game is great, but there is, to my mind, little to actually *do*. Some contracts, build some stations, a lot of fighting, and exploration. That's it. I'd like to see more features just added to the universe in general:

-building gates
-*loads* of new equipment, but say you could only find certain pieces in certain places, not just the general special-stuff-in-hidden-planets.
-Change the fairly linear nature of ship components, make certain ship components only available in certain places.
-Alliance/Fed frames only available in those territories.
-Wormholes that spit you out randomly near uncharted planets.
-Bars you can go into to pick up info on uncharted planets.
-Have stations other than the trade station have more effect.
-Make items that could cost >10,000,000 credits, heck >100,000,000 or even higher.
-Ultra-rare frames that are perhaps both quick but also with fairly good shields, or especially high assembly, or high allocation-points (CMs, crew etc, those points, whatever they're called)
-Other alien races, some friendly or not? Choose between races???
-Stars that take up an actual amount of space, like several sectors in diameter.
-Special shields for 'stardiving'.
-Artifacts littered around, doing special things like teleportation, giving special equipment (once only?), blasting stuff etc.
-Make capitals truly powerful (i.e. several fighters needed to take one down, minimum. Even for eclipse.). This would encourage fleets, allying etc.
-Customising ship to have two particle cannons, or 3 lasers (large frames have more options)
-Underwater cities, allow spaceships to go underwater with the right upgrade.
-different looking ciites, some with special interior areas to dock etc.
-Mega-stations, which you can fly around in.
-Rare ores and minerals hidden in the giant asteroids
-More weapons, shields, missiles etc. (like more equipment, earlier)
-More things to do with the backstory, hidden beacons that say stuff about it, stuff in the news.
-More quests to follow
-Player-created quests (would be especially good in mp)
-Underground cities?
-Hollow planets? (tunnel leading into them)
-Stuff in the hollow planets (cities, containers, wormholes etc.)
-Giant living creatues, maybe some kind of alien skywhale or something living in gas giants (something anyway)
-Floating islands in gas giants - have the islands float around? (whilst staying facing outwards, of course)
-tunnels and stuff in said floating islands!
-New ships, able to fly capital ships??
-Diplomatic relations - have stuff in the news, which affects the universe, about e.g. tensions between different factions, war breaking out, espionage, perhaps you could become an official diplomat on one side's behalf!
-Make money not so easy to get hold of.

I could probably go on, but this is already quite a long post

[Jack Dandy]

Another thing that could be added to flesh out the trading aspect is a way for the player to "predict" how prices will vary in the various systems, besides the static hitech/lowtech thing.

Some kind of news you can read before entering star systems (Read them in other star systems, for example), heck, making them a gamble could be even more exciting.
Picture this: A recent war draws need for Platinum, while peace efforts try to end the war as quickly as possible. And if you could somehow prolong the war so they would pay more for stuff you bring them, well, that could be awesome too.

...I just realized how completely freaking evil that sounds. Sorry. But it'd still be neat!

The current varying prices are simply based on chance (when you enter a sector), and this kinda cancels out the whole "think in order to trade well" thing.

[Edited on 5-12-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[gh0stwizard]

I forgot to say about one important thing, which were introduced in Elite. Each system has own governments : anarchy, feudal, confederate and others. Each government determines the cost and availability, as well as the level of danger for the player.
For example, in the anarchic system, you can buy at low prices a number of products, including prohibited. But in order to fly safely in such a system needs a very equipped ship. In many cases, one flight of 4 ended in a loss.
Also prohibited goods checked patrol police in systems with high levels of government (corporate, democratic, etc ) and at a convenient attacked. Trade between the systems of such goods was very risky.
Evochron world seems very friendly, varieties of goods for trading is too low and they are roughly equally distributed across all systems. I know that there are hostile systems, but why should I fly to them, if the same product I buy in a safer place for the same money?

[49rTbird]

Hello gh0stwizard, Welcome to the forum and the Sim. Have fun and hope to see you out there sometime.